656 lines
18 KiB
Plaintext
656 lines
18 KiB
Plaintext
(;FF[4]
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CA[UTF-8]
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GM[1]
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PC[OGS: https://online-go.com/game/review/395780]
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BR[2d]
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WR[2d]
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CP[online-go.com]
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TM[0]OT[0 none]
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RE[?]
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SZ[19]
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KM[6.5]
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RU[japanese]
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(;B[qd]
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;W[dd]
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;B[pp]
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;W[dp]
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;B[fq]
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;W[cn]
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;B[pj]
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;W[jd]
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;B[cf]
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(;W[gc]
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)(;W[ce]
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;B[df]
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;W[gc]
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;B[ci]
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;W[ck]
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;B[cj]
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;W[dk]
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;B[ei]
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(;W[nq]
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;B[qn]
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;W[eq]
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;B[er]
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;W[fp]
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;B[gq]
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;W[gp]
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;B[hq]
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;W[bf]
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;B[bg]
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;W[be]
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;B[dr]
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)(;W[bf]
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;B[bg]
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;W[be]
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;B[dr]
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;W[nq]C[
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-- chat --
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snakesss: fixing people's existential crisis would be an easier promise imo
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]
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;B[qn]
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;W[eq]
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;B[er]
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;W[fp]
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;B[gq]
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;W[gp]
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;B[hq]C[Hi! This lesson is about opening rules. There are two things you should be aware of in the opening. First, you shouldn't try to play endgame moves in the opening. In a way, that sounds too obvious. Some players, however, try to. Let's look at an example.
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This game was played by two 9 kyu players. There were many big points on the board.
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Hello everyone. This is a text-based lecture about what to do and no to do in the opening.
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mark5000: There's no audio or anything, so if you're here, you're good. :)
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Shakes Fish At Sky: nice
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Cactus Juice: Buyt are we really here?
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Xv8: Is Plato still stuck in his cave?
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Shakes Fish At Sky: lets not get metaphysical cactus
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mark5000: I can fix your Go. I can't fix your existential crisis.
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Shakes Fish At Sky: lol
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Shakes Fish At Sky: please fix my go
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adamomo: lol
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Xv8: My Go has yet to work at all, let alone need fixing
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spiritstar42: my existential crises needs fixing but if you can't ill settle for my go
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Napster: I agree with cacti
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Sukkubix: Thank you for the lecture :)
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]
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;W[cq]C[In the game, White played at 3-3. It's clear that this was big, but there were many urgent points. That move was fine though.
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]
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(;B[cr]C[Black, however, played here next. What do you think of this move? Many players follow their opponents around the board, like an eager puppy.
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-- chat --
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akr: too slow
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chess_player: Black probably gained 3-4 points here
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Executive Calamari: Not gaining enough
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chess_player: But he could have made bigger play in the top right
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mayomoyo: Top right or extending to bottom right seems bigger
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Metropolis: B's group cant' die, and can't kill w, so the 2nd line move isn't threatening anything.
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]
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;W[bq]C[It was time for White to tenuki and play elsewhere. But White responded here. We see such sequences from time to time. It isn't good to make endgame plays when you have many other places to play.
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-- chat --
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Undercover2019: 017
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]
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)(;AE[cq]C[Where should both players have played then?
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-- chat --
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snakesss: Friendly SYNC reminder, if the moves don't make sense with the text, try hitting the sync button.
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mark5000: Thanks.
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chess_player: If I was white, I would have played P17
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chess_player: Or may be 017
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mark5000: Good thought
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snakesss: black can do that as well
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snakesss: perhaps m3 is an option
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chess_player: Is m3 a good option?
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mark5000: Good, so all of you are as better than 9 kyu players :)
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]
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(;B[od]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: here. From move 0: R16 D16 Q4 D4 F3 C6 Q10 K16 C14 C15 D14 G17 C11 C9 C10 D9 E11 B14 B13 B15 D2 O3 R6 E3 E2 F4 G3 G4 H3 C3 C3 P16
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chess_player: Nice
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]
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)(;AW[pr]C[First, White needed to slide into the corner.
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]
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(;B[qq]
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;W[kq]C[Then this extension is very big. In addition, the upper right corner was unfinished. Rule 1 of the opening is (1) Don't play endgame moves in the opening. As I've said before, corner enclosures and approaches are huge. Remember not to play endgame moves in the opening! Let's learn the second rule of the opening.
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-- chat --
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p6109: how about c3
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mark5000: c3 was the game move and it was actually ok.
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p6109: thx
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mark5000: around q2 and p17 were bigger.
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chess_player: Can you please suggest how much point is playing L3 worth?
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chess_player: As in, c3 probably was worth 8 points? Am I right?
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chess_player: Or is this a bad question?
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Metropolis: The w group can be badly attacked without l3
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snakesss: if black has l3 instead of white on this board, i think white is dead, so l3 is worth the entire bottom
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mark5000: I think in the opening it's not a good question for most players to be asking. It's not because this information isn't useful, but if you're a DDK player, painting in broad strokes is more important.
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mark5000: If you're liable to follow your opponent around the board and make endgame plays without thinking, it's of no consequence that you can count point values precisely.
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mark5000: Yes, that's fine too.
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mayomoyo: Can L3 be played before Q2? If black secures the corner, can't white make a base on the other side, with J2, for example?
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chess_player: Hmm
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Kryswilx: i see this borad bad for white
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mark5000: Let's move on.
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]
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)(;B[lq]
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;W[qq]
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(;B[lo]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: mark, is this ok too?. From move 0: R16 D16 Q4 D4 F3 C6 Q10 K16 C14 C15 D14 G17 C11 C9 C10 D9 E11 B14 B13 B15 D2 O3 R6 E3 E2 F4 G3 G4 H3 C3 C3 Q2 M3 R3 M5
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]
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)(;B[np]C[
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-- chat --
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chess_player: Not precisely, but I usually think if l3 is worth more points, lets play it there
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mark5000: I would play around here though.
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mark5000: It's good to surround things, since Go is literally the surrounding game.
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]
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)(;B[oq]
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;W[or]
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;B[np]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Also this.
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]
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)))))))(;B[pd]
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;W[dp]
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;B[pp]
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;W[dd]
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(;B[pj]
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(;W[nc]
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;B[jp]
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;W[dj]
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;B[pf]
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;W[jd]
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;B[cc]
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;W[cd]
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;B[dc]
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;W[ec]
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;B[eb]
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;W[fb]
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;B[fc]
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;W[ed]
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;B[gb]
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;W[fd]
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;B[fa]
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;W[gc]
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;B[fb]
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;W[qn]
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;B[qo]
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;W[pn]
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;B[np]
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;W[pl]C[The second rule of the opening is (2) Never tenuki in the middle of a fight. Even if there are big points, don't tenuki while fighting.
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This is from a game played between two pros. What's the biggest point now? of the opening is (2) Never tenuki in the middle of a fight. Even if there are big points, don't tenuki while fighting.
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This is from a game played between two pros. What's the biggest point now?
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-- chat --
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snakesss: o9?
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mayomoyo: F3?
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mayomoyo: F3 is biggest move but not most urgent, I mean
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mark5000: Good clarification
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ZedSG: I like cactus' variation
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mark5000: Cactus Juice, White surely won't play move 2, will she?
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ZedSG: I mean, us ddk would
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Decros: hello, wat's this?
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]
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(;B[qk]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: If this,
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]
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(;W[ql]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: :O why not? doesn't it keep eyeshape?
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]
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;B[nk]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: this for surrounding?. From move 0: Q16 D4 Q4 D16 Q10 O17 K4 D10 Q14 K16 C17 C16 D17 E17 E18 F18 F17 E16 G18 F16 F19 G17 F18 R6 R5 Q6 O4 Q8 R9 R8 O9
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]
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)(;W[mm]C[
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-- chat --
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Kryswilx: n7
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mark5000: I jump out.
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Cactus Juice: ooh, cool
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]
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))(;B[fq]C[For Black, this approach is huge.
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]
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)(;AW[hq]C[On the other hand, White would also like to play here.
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]
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)(;B[hc]C[Black, however, ataried here in the actual game. Moves on the right side were also possible, since there's an unresolved, but stable, fight there, too.
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-- chat --
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snakesss: hi, demo board text lecture by 5dan
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snakesss: about opening
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mark5000: Would you all answer this atari?
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Cactus Juice: I wouldn't, feels small
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snakesss: ^^
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Decros: nope
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ZedSG: not that small to me, black can follow with k17 or k18
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Undercover2019: jump 07
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chess_player: Yes
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mark5000: Would you allow Black a flower (ponnuki)?
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snakesss: i might cuz of k16
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]
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(;W[gd]C[Even though playing in the lower left corner is big, you mustn't allow Black a ponnuki.
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-- chat --
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chess_player: I would want to do that because the group in the top right mid is actually very weak
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snakesss: cool
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]
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;B[hd]C[So White connected and Black pushed.
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]
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;W[he]C[White still couldn't tenuki, so White haned.
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]
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;B[ie]C[Black haned too,
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]
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;W[id]C[And White cut immediately.
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]
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;B[hf]
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;W[ge]
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;B[ib]C[In response, Black played a tiger's mouth to defend his two stones. Here's a question: Can White tenuki now? The fight was still underway up here, so a tenuki wasn't a good idea.
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-- chat --
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chess_player: No
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p6109: no
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Soineanta: I don't think so.
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chess_player: It would still leave the white group in the mid center in danger
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ZedSG: no, that top group looks like it needs some help
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mark5000: You all are too good.
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]
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(;W[pc]C[White needed to continue, so White attached and settled in the corner.
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-- chat --
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Xv8: Or all the bad players are keeping quiet
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chess_player: (I don't manage to think all that in the game)
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]
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;B[qc]C[
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-- chat --
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杯酒释兵权: instead of p16, i felt like r18 is better
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]
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(;W[od]
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;B[pe]C[
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-- chat --
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Shakes Fish At Sky: i am not keeping quiet
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]
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(;W[if]C[After these exchanges, White cut here and began fighting. What do you think of this sequence? Had White tenukied, Black would have attacked White's group at the top, taking control of the game. Previously, we talked about how a battle can sometimes begin in the opening. When that happens, don't rush to tenuki!
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-- chat --
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Shakes Fish At Sky: its just I am having dinner
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chess_player: Still in the fight, so black should respond
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Cactus Juice: mark, why did white attach q17 instead of slide?
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Shakes Fish At Sky: Q18
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p6109: I would have finished L18
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snakesss: white had one weak group that needed help
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mark5000: White attached at q17 instead of sliding to keep sente.
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Shakes Fish At Sky: or C3
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mayomoyo: I was also thinking L18
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Cactus Juice: l18*
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snakesss: so, white has to cut? so black cant fix?
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Cactus Juice: snakesss: yeah, fixing there is huge for black, works well with botom and right :/
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mark5000: Correct.
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mark5000: This is secondary to my lesson though.
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mark5000: This part of the lesson is that White should not tenuki the first move.
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Shakes Fish At Sky: I would have made that mistake I think
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Shakes Fish At Sky: cause i am bad
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mark5000: It's suspiciously easy to fall into this trap.
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snakesss: which mistake? i would have done most of these mistakes in the 2nd rule part
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mark5000: When it's highlighted as a Go problem, like here, it's easy for everyone to see it.
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mark5000: But when you put it in your own games, suddenly you lose all good sense and start making these mistakes you know you shouldn't make.
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mark5000: That's why it's important to talk about it so much that it becomes second nature.
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chess_player: So, how long do we keep this fight so that it doesn't contradict the first rule?
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mark5000: If it's second nature, you'll do it in your games by instinct, and you improve your Go skill.
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mark5000: Good question.
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mark5000: If a battle for the health and security of groups is underway, don't tenuki, per rule 2.
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mark5000: If the battle is no longer underway, or if the battle no longer concerns the health and security of groups, but only points, then rule 1 applies.
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snakesss: but first ponnuki was just one stone and good shape - no security of groups endangered
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mark5000: It did endanger the upper right white stones, if you recall.
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snakesss: ok
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chess_player: Which three black stones?
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]
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)(;W[kb]
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;B[if]C[
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-- chat --
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Shakes Fish At Sky: yeah Q18
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mark5000: Right, it's a bit peaceful for this board.
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mark5000: Cutting here was important, since it cracks open White's left side like an egg
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]
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;W[pb]LB[fg:A]LB[eh:B]LB[di:C]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: p6109, I'd think about A B or C
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p6109: thx
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p6109: E11 is too high
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snakesss: even if it puts white stones in danger?
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Alma Pacifica: is for academy alma pacifica is ?
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]
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(;B[ei]
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;W[di]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: It's a bit hard to continue here.
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p6109: thx
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]
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(;B[eh]
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;W[dh]
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;B[eg]
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;W[dg]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Like this, and you're not attacking.
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]
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)(;B[dh]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: i think that for that wall to die only if white lets it die
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]
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;W[ch]
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;B[cg]C[
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-- chat --
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snakesss: was that last one bad for black considering the board?
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mark5000: This could be better, but I'm not sure Black is strong enough.
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snakesss: there is a white group on the right
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Shakes Fish At Sky: e13?
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]
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(;W[eh]
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;B[dg]
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(;W[eg]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Probably this
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]
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)(;W[fh]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Or here
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]
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))(;W[dg]
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;B[eh]
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;W[bg]
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;B[cf]
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;W[bf]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: white can just connect, no?. From move 0: Q16 D4 Q4 D16 Q10 O17 K4 D10 Q14 K16 C17 C16 D17 E17 E18 F18 F17 E16 G18 F16 F19 G17 F18 R6 R5 Q6 O4 Q8 H17 G16 H16 H15 J15 J16 H14 G15 J18 Q17 R17 P16 Q15 L18 J14 Q18 E11 D11 D12 C12 C13 D13 E12 B13 C14 B14
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]
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;B[fk]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: It feels like BLack profited enough.
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mark5000: Yes
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Cactus Juice: yeah, it's a big profit :s
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]
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)))(;B[eh]
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;W[ch]
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;B[cg]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Compare to something like this, which I like a bit more.
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]
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)(;B[di]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: this is over my ddk head xD
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mark5000: Or this attachment, which forces local moves that have to coordinate with the upper group AND keep Black out of the left side.
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mark5000: XD
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mark5000: That's why it's not part of the DDK lecture.
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chess_player: :)
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mark5000: The important part was the two opening rules.
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mark5000: Your opponents will not follow them, and it's a chance to seize control of the game each time it happens.
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snakesss: it is still a situational judgement call
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snakesss: that ponnuki thing is a little vague for me :S
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Alma Pacifica: im DDK
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Alma Pacifica: thx for lecture
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snakesss: maybe including when to ignore a sitation that looks fighty would have clarified it
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mark5000: It's ok. It's enough to consider a ponnuki valuable and deny it to your opponent when possible, regardless of the situation.
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snakesss: ok
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p6109: It is harder to use a wall than its is to use a ponnuki for me...
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mark5000: The right side is a good example of that, actually.
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mark5000: The three WHite stones look to be in danger, but actually they have miai to move out or settle.
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mark5000: So it's stable, ok to leave.
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mark5000: Part of the balance of Go is between taking big moves and attacking weaknesses.
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mark5000: Sometimes, you want to ignore a big play and attack in hopes of profiting more than the big play would profit you.
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mark5000: On the other hand, sometimes you really do want the big play.
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mark5000: In such cases, you should mind your weak group only as long as you have to.
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mark5000: The right side is an example. White left to take a big point because the group was stable, for now.
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mark5000: Play in one area as much as necessary and no more.
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mark5000: That flows into rule 1: don't play endgame moves in the opening. Endgame moves are moves that take only points
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mark5000: I hope that's clear as mud now...
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p6109: :-)
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mark5000: Next lecture topic is: how to destroy enemy shapes.
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mark5000: See you all next time!
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p6109: See you,
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Shakes Fish At Sky: thx mark5000
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Shakes Fish At Sky: Its not exactly obvious but seeing though mud is what go is all about
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]
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))(;W[pb]
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;B[if]TR[ec]TR[gc]SQ[bd]TR[cd]TR[dd]TR[ed]TR[fd]TR[gd]SQ[ce]SQ[de]SQ[ee]SQ[fe]TR[ge]TR[he]SQ[gf]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Same with this.
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mark5000: No matter what White does, besides cutting, Black will fix the cutting point.
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Shakes Fish At Sky: you asume a aspiring 9k would do that?
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mark5000: Six liberties may seem like a lot, but you'll have to watch that left white group.
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Cactus Juice: well, answering the question on the cut there, i think white has too much to worry about, but if well played can build a big left
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]
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))(;W[qb]C[
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-- chat --
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Shakes Fish At Sky: ah - its whites move
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mark5000: MoI think this could be better, too. It suits my modern eyes.
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mark5000: I think*
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Cactus Juice: L!8 just lives somewhat peacefully, doesn't strike me as white's goal here
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Shakes Fish At Sky: if it was black then Q3 would be big
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]
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))(;W[pb]
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;B[if]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: White didn't want this.
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Cactus Juice: ah, makes sense, thanks :D
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]
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)(;W[oe]
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;B[pe]
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;W[kf]C[AI would play like this, in case anyone is wondering about it. But this game was played in 1974. In the 70s, no player would ever peep at a high approach like this, because they liked to preserve aji for living underneath later.
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-- chat --
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tpnZbonek: becouse its confident enough to kill 3 black stones..
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mark5000: Right.
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mark5000: That's all I had prepared for today.
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p6109: thanks a lot
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tpnZbonek: thank you for the lesson
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mark5000: I'll answer any further questions you may have.
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ZedSG: thank you for teaching us!
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mayomoyo: Thank you very much for the lesson.
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tpnZbonek: i wanted to ask, you do lessons in the same time?
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tpnZbonek: i catched it luckily for 2. time
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chess_player: Thank you so much mark5000, for this and for the puzzles in the puzzles sections as well, they have contributed a lot to whatever skill I have
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Cactus Juice: oh, the ai play is pretty cool
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mark5000: I don't have a schedule, unfortunately. I just do them on Sundays when I find time.
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tpnZbonek: ok thanks for the lesson
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mark5000: This is the earliest I would do one. Sometimes I do one a bit later.
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mark5000: Any questions about the opening?
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chess_player: Can you please play this situation down to when the F3 is decided
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Shakes Fish At Sky: intresting that ai plays on 6th line
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p6109: how would you start attacking the white group with six liberties? E11 maybe
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Shakes Fish At Sky: humans might discount it
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chess_player: As in, was it a matter of keeping sente or is somebody reading ahead enough to know that either black or white know they will get the F3
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mark5000: Unfortunately, f3 was never decided in the actual game. Fighting continued for the rest of the game.
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Cactus Juice: Shakes Fish At Sky: yeah, but pretty cool move, kinda encloses the two stones, preserves corner aji and goes to the center
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Shakes Fish At Sky: yeah - all is obvious in hindsight
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]
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))(;W[hq]
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;B[gd]
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;W[ge]
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;B[he]C[
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: oh interesting, but doesn't the double hane work for white here?
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]
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(;W[gf]
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;B[hf]TR[nc]TR[jd]C[This is a liability I don't think you want. The pro player says connecting is necessary.connecting is necessary.
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-- chat --
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Cactus Juice: I don't see the ponnuki here as a problem for W, beucase the right side goroup is not weak itself, b will only get 2 points and there are bigger stuff
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snakesss: that's how "ponnuki is worth 30 points" works then xD
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mark5000: Ah, maybe. It's a close call to my eyes.
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]
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)(;W[hf]
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;B[gf]
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;W[fe]
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;B[ie]TR[nc]TR[jd]TR[pl]TR[pn]TR[qn]C[
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-- chat --
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mark5000: Similar when you double hane
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Decros: even worse for the top group
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mark5000: White already had a second group that's not 100% secure, so extra fighting like this isn't what White wants.
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mark5000: But it's possible. I'm not saying this way is terrible. Actually, AI thinks it's about even with the pro continuation.
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snakesss: so, after that ponnuki, there are a few moves played
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snakesss: h15 and j15 are what rly put white in danger
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snakesss: those moves are a must for white to build a large left?
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snakesss: and surround black?
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]
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))))(;W[dj]
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;B[fq]
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;W[dn]
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;B[jp]
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))(;B[jp]
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(;W[dj]
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;B[np]
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;W[nc]
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;B[pf]
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;W[jd]
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;B[cc]
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;W[cd]
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;B[dc]
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;W[ec]
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;B[eb]
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;W[fb]
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;B[fc]
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;W[ed]
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;B[gb]
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;W[fd]
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;B[fa]
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;W[gc]
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;B[fb]
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)(;W[nc]
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;B[pf]
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;W[jd]
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;B[qn]
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;W[dj]
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;B[cc]
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;W[cd]
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;B[dc]
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;W[ec]
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;B[eb]
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;W[fb]
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;B[fc]
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;W[ed]
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;B[gb]
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;W[fd]
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;B[fa]
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;W[gc]
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;B[fb]
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)))) |